Yes, I have heard these objections before with the use of NFP, as my joining the Catholic Church in ‘93 brought a lot of questions to the fore. And when Grace was given we were able to teach NFP to many couples as it was a lovely gift for our own marriage. We would teach the engaged about the serious or “grave” reason, that when it is a …
Yes, I have heard these objections before with the use of NFP, as my joining the Catholic Church in ‘93 brought a lot of questions to the fore. And when Grace was given we were able to teach NFP to many couples as it was a lovely gift for our own marriage. We would teach the engaged about the serious or “grave” reason, that when it is a deep sorrow not to be able to welcome another child due to deep emotional, societal, monetary, health, etc. issues, then you know you could have a serious issue. It would be an issue for the two of you and a spiritual advisor for discernment. The practice of NFP can develop a great deal of virtue, including self-control, humility, patience, and ultimately a very real joining of marital hearts as we become an image of Christ’s sacrifice for his bride the Church, in bringing the spiritual and corporeal life in abundance. This kind of transformation due to Grace and Mercy does not happen overnight to the vast majority of us, so some that start out with an attitude of “two and done” will likely change their outlook IF they are not commiting the mortal sin of contraception and/or sterilization, or in relative infertility, IVF. And then there is always the added health benefit of knowing what your body is doing for the wives. And, in our diocese there are quite a few reverent Masses offered in the post-conciliar form; ad orientem, chant, boy altar servers and acolytes, dalmatics, incense. It is possible and it is growing. The young Mr. B lacks nuance, but God is faithful, therefore there will be purification-purgation as we all experience. It might be more intense due to the weight of the public witness. Again prayers for him and his. One item that I find interesting that is not much being debated re: Mr. B’s address, is his mentioning the threat developing in lawfare to us if we dare to name those who killed Christ or say something as true as Christ is King. Hmmm.
Thank you, Penny & John, for this explication of your mindset re N.F.P. Very regrettably, it is common and distressing.
To train persons/couples in how to avoid conception while engaging in sexual intercourse is training them in contraception, isn't it ? As asked earlier, does it excuse a cannibal if he uses a knife and fork ?
Now, to provide such tuition to a married couple who are experiencing a grave need to avoid a new child is perfectly moral - a one on one tuition precipitated by that circumstance, and as envisaged by Pope Paul VI. But to provide such tuition to a group of engaged couples, while it might not be theologically sinful, is certainly pastorally disastrous, facilitating the formation of a Contraceptive Mentality, and has significantly contributed to the non-Catholic perception of N.F.P. as "Catholic contraception".
And it doesn't stop there, because it is common for N.F.P. to be taught to our teenage girls at "Catholic" high schools. Just inculcating the Contraceptive Mentality which has been so destructive of Western Christian civilisation.
Penny & John, I hope you will realise that, in accordance with Church teaching and with pastoral wisdom, there is no place for the teaching of N.F.P. to groups, especially groups who have not yet begun to engage in conjugal relations. It's setting them up to fall.
Anecdotally, I had good Catholic friends, a married Catholic couple, who got involved in teaching N.F.P. in such manner as you describe. Eventually, they left the Church. And the contradiction between the "grave reason" and the expectation of regular/normal practice of N.F.P., indicated by such tuition as they were engaging in, was significant in their departure. I think they came to think of themselves as hypocrites.
In regard to finding reverentially, faithfully celebrated New Masses, you are very blessed to have quite a few in your diocese. Perhaps you have been catalytic in that regard.
You do puzzle me a little with your reference to "ad orientem". You have not dealt with the issues I raised of the proscribed ordinary use of Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist, and the reception of Holy Communion in the hand.
Would I be right to guess that one or both of you are Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist ?
Thank you for your response. Ultimately the answer is for NFP and other things that the Church allows is, because there is logic, good reason and charity. The Church, our Mother, allows them, period. If folks are interested in learning how the Magisterium comes to teach certain things the answers are out there. St. John Paul II’s Love and Responsibility is a good read. I could go into great detail but for you I doubt it would bear much fruit. For those who desire to know more about the unitive and procreative benefits of using NFP when there is a just reason please keep seeking the answers. Beware of the ideologies on both sides, trust God and his plan for you. Usually a strong adherence to providentialism comes from men, as a side note. This might be helpful for some: https://youtu.be/p573BQOTFJc?si=HTJVevnK2VGHm4-g. Blessings, Penny
Salve, Penny. I notice that you insist on avoiding my points about the ordinary use of Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist and the reception of Holy Communion in the hand. It is apparent that you are comfortable with both of these being part of what you have called "reverent Masses". And I have had to conclude that you, and very probably John, are an Extraordinary Minister. Your avoidance of my queries is not a good look.
Nor was it a good look when you and John ploughed into Harrison Butker from your position as self-appointed "superior" Catholics. It was that that brought me to challenge you.
And it is offensive that you dismiss as being ignorant those who might challenge you - for example, unfamiliar with Church documents such as those of Pope J.P. II. Your condescension in regard to Harrison's Catholicity being in need of purification is grossly offensive.
Thank you for the video link. But it was a very unimpressive attempt to "re-interpret" Humanae Vitae's clear position, so that Catholics could find themselves happy to resort to N.F.P. for less than grave reasons. Pastorally disastrous, as is illustrated by the Comment of "maleaturner".
You know that the Catholics in the pews have practised and continue to practise artificial contraception, despite the Church's firm teaching, and despite tuition in N.F.P. Why ? Because, on the one hand, our bishops and priests caved to the Contraceptive Mentality and haven't preached against contraception, and, on the other hand, those in the pews have recognised that the mentality is contraceptive, so why not just take the pill.
And just one little quote from the great Catholic novel by Francois Mauriac, La Pharisienne - "It is almost inevitable that the professionally virtuous should hold exaggerated ideas of the importance of their actions, that they should constitute themselves the judges of their own progress in excellence, that, measuring themselves by the standards of those around them, they should at times be made slightly giddy by the spectacle of their own merits."
Yes, I have heard these objections before with the use of NFP, as my joining the Catholic Church in ‘93 brought a lot of questions to the fore. And when Grace was given we were able to teach NFP to many couples as it was a lovely gift for our own marriage. We would teach the engaged about the serious or “grave” reason, that when it is a deep sorrow not to be able to welcome another child due to deep emotional, societal, monetary, health, etc. issues, then you know you could have a serious issue. It would be an issue for the two of you and a spiritual advisor for discernment. The practice of NFP can develop a great deal of virtue, including self-control, humility, patience, and ultimately a very real joining of marital hearts as we become an image of Christ’s sacrifice for his bride the Church, in bringing the spiritual and corporeal life in abundance. This kind of transformation due to Grace and Mercy does not happen overnight to the vast majority of us, so some that start out with an attitude of “two and done” will likely change their outlook IF they are not commiting the mortal sin of contraception and/or sterilization, or in relative infertility, IVF. And then there is always the added health benefit of knowing what your body is doing for the wives. And, in our diocese there are quite a few reverent Masses offered in the post-conciliar form; ad orientem, chant, boy altar servers and acolytes, dalmatics, incense. It is possible and it is growing. The young Mr. B lacks nuance, but God is faithful, therefore there will be purification-purgation as we all experience. It might be more intense due to the weight of the public witness. Again prayers for him and his. One item that I find interesting that is not much being debated re: Mr. B’s address, is his mentioning the threat developing in lawfare to us if we dare to name those who killed Christ or say something as true as Christ is King. Hmmm.
Thank you, Penny & John, for this explication of your mindset re N.F.P. Very regrettably, it is common and distressing.
To train persons/couples in how to avoid conception while engaging in sexual intercourse is training them in contraception, isn't it ? As asked earlier, does it excuse a cannibal if he uses a knife and fork ?
Now, to provide such tuition to a married couple who are experiencing a grave need to avoid a new child is perfectly moral - a one on one tuition precipitated by that circumstance, and as envisaged by Pope Paul VI. But to provide such tuition to a group of engaged couples, while it might not be theologically sinful, is certainly pastorally disastrous, facilitating the formation of a Contraceptive Mentality, and has significantly contributed to the non-Catholic perception of N.F.P. as "Catholic contraception".
And it doesn't stop there, because it is common for N.F.P. to be taught to our teenage girls at "Catholic" high schools. Just inculcating the Contraceptive Mentality which has been so destructive of Western Christian civilisation.
Penny & John, I hope you will realise that, in accordance with Church teaching and with pastoral wisdom, there is no place for the teaching of N.F.P. to groups, especially groups who have not yet begun to engage in conjugal relations. It's setting them up to fall.
Anecdotally, I had good Catholic friends, a married Catholic couple, who got involved in teaching N.F.P. in such manner as you describe. Eventually, they left the Church. And the contradiction between the "grave reason" and the expectation of regular/normal practice of N.F.P., indicated by such tuition as they were engaging in, was significant in their departure. I think they came to think of themselves as hypocrites.
In regard to finding reverentially, faithfully celebrated New Masses, you are very blessed to have quite a few in your diocese. Perhaps you have been catalytic in that regard.
You do puzzle me a little with your reference to "ad orientem". You have not dealt with the issues I raised of the proscribed ordinary use of Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist, and the reception of Holy Communion in the hand.
Would I be right to guess that one or both of you are Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist ?
Dominus vobiscum, Leo.
Hello Leo,
Thank you for your response. Ultimately the answer is for NFP and other things that the Church allows is, because there is logic, good reason and charity. The Church, our Mother, allows them, period. If folks are interested in learning how the Magisterium comes to teach certain things the answers are out there. St. John Paul II’s Love and Responsibility is a good read. I could go into great detail but for you I doubt it would bear much fruit. For those who desire to know more about the unitive and procreative benefits of using NFP when there is a just reason please keep seeking the answers. Beware of the ideologies on both sides, trust God and his plan for you. Usually a strong adherence to providentialism comes from men, as a side note. This might be helpful for some: https://youtu.be/p573BQOTFJc?si=HTJVevnK2VGHm4-g. Blessings, Penny
Salve, Penny. I notice that you insist on avoiding my points about the ordinary use of Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist and the reception of Holy Communion in the hand. It is apparent that you are comfortable with both of these being part of what you have called "reverent Masses". And I have had to conclude that you, and very probably John, are an Extraordinary Minister. Your avoidance of my queries is not a good look.
Nor was it a good look when you and John ploughed into Harrison Butker from your position as self-appointed "superior" Catholics. It was that that brought me to challenge you.
And it is offensive that you dismiss as being ignorant those who might challenge you - for example, unfamiliar with Church documents such as those of Pope J.P. II. Your condescension in regard to Harrison's Catholicity being in need of purification is grossly offensive.
Thank you for the video link. But it was a very unimpressive attempt to "re-interpret" Humanae Vitae's clear position, so that Catholics could find themselves happy to resort to N.F.P. for less than grave reasons. Pastorally disastrous, as is illustrated by the Comment of "maleaturner".
You know that the Catholics in the pews have practised and continue to practise artificial contraception, despite the Church's firm teaching, and despite tuition in N.F.P. Why ? Because, on the one hand, our bishops and priests caved to the Contraceptive Mentality and haven't preached against contraception, and, on the other hand, those in the pews have recognised that the mentality is contraceptive, so why not just take the pill.
Let me conclude by alerting you to a video review by the extraordinary Fr Clay Hunt of Harrison's address - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUXpS6ghPUw.
And just one little quote from the great Catholic novel by Francois Mauriac, La Pharisienne - "It is almost inevitable that the professionally virtuous should hold exaggerated ideas of the importance of their actions, that they should constitute themselves the judges of their own progress in excellence, that, measuring themselves by the standards of those around them, they should at times be made slightly giddy by the spectacle of their own merits."
Dominus tecum.